by Larry EderThis coming Monday, April 18, 2022, Des Linden will be running the 126th Boston Marathon. Des has admitted that there were some challenges in her build-up, but she has been happy with how the last month was going. Recently, Des Linden was named Chief Running Advisor for Brooks Running.
Des Linden is one of the most popular athletes in our sport. Her win in 2018 Boston, in absolutely horrific conditions, added to her legacy. Since then, Des Linden came in 4th in the Olympic Trials (Feb 2020) and has held her own in several marathons. After the Boston win, Des Linden was a rock star.
Des Linden, photo courtesy of Brooks Running
How popular is Des Linden? If I post a Des Linden tweet, with a good photo, and deep thoughts on this fine athlete, I see 30-50,000 retweets. Only other athletes that surpassed that: Usain Bolt and now, Grant Holloway. I am not making this up.
I have time-traveled back to 2018, December 2018, in fact. Matt Turnbull, then elite coordinator at Rock N Roll, had brought in Des Linden and Kara Goucher into the RNR San Antonio marathon. Des Linden was not racing at her normal elite level, she was pacing a group to 1:55 for the half marathon.
It was clear six years ago that Des was loved in running.
This is a fun interview, and we discuss many topics. It has not been published before, and I thought you might enjoy this on Boston weekend.
Larry: This is Larry Eder with RunBlogRun with Desi Linden, and I was very proud of you on how you ran in New York.
Desi: Thank you.
Larry: I thought you showed some guts, and you always do. Can you kind of take us to that race and tell us what you thought you did well, and what you could’ve improved on?
Desi: Yeah, I think it was, one, it’s been a crazy year. So, you know, bouncing back from that Boston win and trying to train and draw the other things was always going to be challenging. So, I thought I did have a really good run, and all things considered, when you look at my schedule.
Larry: Yeah, yeah–
Desi: — so I was pretty proud of that, balancing all of the things and still going and having a decent showing. I obviously switched coaches and training philosophies very recently too, which is another thing that could be super stressful, but I thought I managed really well. I thought the training went very well, and we tried some different things. Different race tactics —
Desi: — and you know, I don’t think it’ll ever be my strongest tactic, but it was a good way to see what I could do in that scenario, and go out and not be the aggressor from early on and making it, necessarily a really honest race. I think that’s always how I’m going to be best at the marathon, but trying something new, and seeing how I fared and I think that I, you know, was really solid off of a very slow pace early on. So I was really proud of that. All that being said, I think I can be better with a different strategy, but I can be pretty darn good at that one, as well.
Des Linden, photo courtesy of Brooks Running
Larry: How do you like being in races with no pacemakers? Are you ok with that?
Desi: Yeah, I prefer it. It is kind of love-hate, ’cause it’s true racing —
Larry: –yeah–
Desi: –but, they tend to be — the tactic tends to be let’s just wait, wait, wait. When you have Vivian Cheruiyot and Mary Cattini and Shalane Flanagan and Molly Huddle and those type of people, they can really crash on the 10k and the half-marathon, that obviously doesn’t favor me quite as well, so it ends up, a lot of times, being me or the true strength runners grinding early on and shaking things up, and hopefully, making it a full 26.2.
Larry: Matt Turbull told me yesterday he was chatting with you about all the stuff you have to do around since you won Boston. And he said it’s been harder, kind of doing a lot of the media and press junkets than it is training. Have you been able to enjoy and understand the significance of why people think it’s so cool that you won Boston?
Desi: Yes. Yeah, I mean, it’s so hard to wrap my mind around having won it and what it means to other people, what it means in bigger terms. But I’m absolutely enjoying the whole process of it and it’s slowly coming to me what it all means. But it’s exciting to be talking about the sport and — I was at a Lions game on Thanksgiving, and —
Larry: –cool —
Desi: — it put, you know, the finish of the race upon the Jumbotron on this Thanksgiving Day football game, it’s a huge a deal, and I looked at Ryan, and I was like, “Man, it’s November, end of November, and we’re still seeing this video footage and —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — people, you know, are standing up and cheering during this game that’s not running, and that is really cool to me that we can have a moment in running to talk about that’s going to get, hopefully, more eyes on the sport, and hopefully, next April more people will watch Boston than ever before and we’ll have the right players in the race that just make it more captivating moving forward.
Larry: Brooks sent me some fun pictures of you before New York and we put ’em up, I did a big photo gallery, and the most popular picture was the bottle of — was it scotch or was it whiskey?
Desi: A little bit of both —
Larry: — a little bit of both —
Desi: — yeah —
Larry: — and people really liked that — you know — every year you’ve done a little press thing at Boston, and I didn’t get to do it this year, but it’s always at a little brewery, you know, that Brooks says that stuff, and it’s kind of fun. And I think, you seem to be very honest with people, and people seem to get a kick out of, you know, coffee, beer, and you kind of put stuff in perspective. Do you ever get people who give you trouble about it? Or is it —
Desi: — not so much. I mean, occasionally there’s someone new who just doesn’t jive with, like my young kids look at this, and —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — it’s not appropriate for them and —
Larry –sure —
Desi: — you have to remind them that this is part of being an adult too —
Larry: — yeah —
Des Linden, photo by Brooks Running
Desi: — and after twenty-one they’re going to have these real conversations and I think that I approach it in a very responsible way. I would never, you know, put images of me binge drinking —
Larry: –no–
Desi: — or something
Larry: — no, no, no —
Desi: — of that nature —
Larry: –yeah —
Desi: — and I can understand that being controversial, but, you know, I think it’s just having the conversation and anytime you put anything about yourself in the public, people will want to have a conversation. And that’s not a bad thing.
Larry: Ok. Give me the correct names of both your dogs, because I was screwing them up —
Desi: — that’s ok —
Desi: So, we have Boston. He’s a Golden Retriever —
Larry: — ok —
Desi: — and he’s one. And I have referred to him as “Mr. Beans”, which is his nickname, given to him by Amy Hastings —
Larry: — ok —
Desi: — and then our other dog is Atlas —
Larry: –Atlas —
Desi: — he’s nine years old —
Larry: — aw —
Desi: — and he’s a Chesapeake Bay Retriever —
Larry: — nice —
Desi: — yeah —
Larry: Yeah. My son has a Boston Terrier, Hach, and then Sumo is the Blue Healer —
Desi: –aw–
Larry: — we take ’em out for six miles —
Desi:— yeah —
Larry: — and then they crash all afternoon —
Desi: — that’s the way to do it —
Larry: — oh yeah. I know Walt Drenth. Now, he coached you in college, correct?
Desi: Correct.
Larry: What’s the difference in how he worked with you in college, and how he’s working with you now?
Desi: Yes, I mean, totally different world, just the seasons, and track and field, and I thought I was a 1500-meter runner, and —
Desi: –he’s like, “No, you’re not.” And I think now, I’m obviously marathon-focused, but I’m a lot more mature and I’m just single-focused. I’m just a runner and I was laughing again, I was talking, I think, to Jonathan Gault, earlier this summer, and he was like, “Why would you go back to Walt? Like, you were actually, like, not very good when you ran with him.” And, it’s, you know, yeah sure. But I think that was more of a reflection on my maturity level and commitment and not his coaching. I think he is a fantastic coach. And I recognize that if I had been dialed in as I am now, and as committed as I am now, maybe I would’ve done much better in college. But I’m excited to go work with him now and use his knowledge, gain from it, and see what we can do with the end of this career.
Larry: Describe a week of regular training for you right now.
Desi: Yeah. Well I’m going to go with right now, because I’m coming off of New York —
Larry: — ok —
Desi: — but, typically it’s, I would say, Monday, Tuesday would be recovery days. Be going twelve to fourteen miles in the morning, and a four-miler in the afternoon.
Larry: Ok.
Desi: And then I would do a session on Wednesday, probably something tempo like eight to ten mile tempo —
Larry: –ok–
Desi: — and then two to three recovery days and then a long run. So, that’s typically more what I do now, and then alternating between the threshold tempo sessions and putting in a little bit more speed —
Larry: — a soft ground or varying surfaces?
Desi: Pretty mixed. Recovery days usually on dirt or —
Larry: — ok —
Desi: — in Charlevoix, and there’s a lot of dirt roads out there. You can just go forever. And then I try to do my substance on the roads, or maybe the track.
Larry: You used to go to Florida a bit. Do you still do that?
Desi: Last winter, I went to Arizona —
Larry: — ok–
Desi: — Central Phoenix. I worked with John Ball. He’s been great. And, obviously, went to Arizona State, so it’s nice to get down there and I know the routes, and I know who to run with. And that worked out well really last year.
Larry: Do you believe in muscle memory?
Desi: I do, yes.
Larry: Ok. Alright. I’m just curious. Last year, you did a cross-country race early in the season, right? In Italy?
Desi: Yes.
Larry: Ok. You going to do that again?
Desi: No. That was a won and done. I think it was just getting some fresh, new, exciting things in, and getting back to competing —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — this year, I think I need to recover from New York a little bit more and be on the roads a little bit more. But it was fun, and it did exactly what I needed it to, which was just, kind of, forget about the watch. Forget about the splits. Just go in and race.
Larry: Speaking of watch and splits, will we see you on the track anymore?
Desi: I hope so. Actually, I wouldn’t mind doing a 10k. You know, next year, I think next fall, a lot of people are going to step back from fall marathons —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — so that’s a possibility, which means you could do track a little bit later into the summer. So, I would like to get on the track one more time.
Larry: Will you try to compete for Doha for the World Champs, at all?
Desi: Most likely not.
Larry: Ok. Ok. This is me watching you, ok? So —
Desi: — sure.
Larry: You have really good tactics. And you seem to do best when you’re just breaking people up. And especially over the last five or six miles. Part of it is your physical strength. But part of it is your mental, you know? Do you like when you’re in the thick of it?
Larry: — do you like when you’re pushing it?
Desi: That’s the best.
Larry: Ok. Ok —
Desi: — I mean I think that’s when you walk away, and you know you gave everything to the race. I think that was the one thing after New York where, it’s like, if I had gone earlier, how would this — this would have looked totally different, and I at least could’ve crossed the finish line going, “Man, I’m gassed.” I had nothing left.
Larry: Yeah.
Desi: I’ve never recovered quicker, which is great —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — but it also — I finish now — it was like, “I’m not tired enough. I’m not tired enough at all.”
Larry: That race also reminded me — and what the marathon majors are reminding me of more and more, especially in the US, are championship races. And that’s — in those kind of events, Americans tend to do well. I interviewed Kara yesterday, and she was just talking about the plethora of fantastic runners. You, always are in it. Amy, you know. Shalane, if she decides — I’ve been teasing her, trying to figure out — are you going to coach — she really wants to coach. I know that.
Desi: Yeah.
Larry: But one of her sponsors said. “God, I hope she runs one more time.” You know? But the 20 trials could be one of the toughest trials we’ve ever seen. I mean, there are fantastic women in the sport. We will, obviously, see you 2020?
Desi: The chance —
Larry: — ok, do you want to stay around a little longer after that, or are you enjoying it still?
Desi: Ah, yeah I wrote Sid this last year, this fall. I had so much fun training for New York, and I’m enjoying it —
Larry: — good —
Desi: — I’m really enjoying it, and I think through 2020, I’d love to come and run the majors in 2021. And then, I see myself moving up —
Larry: –ok —
Desi: — maybe 50k or some —
Des Linden running a 5,000m, circa 2015 Adrian Martinez Classic, photo by Kevin Morris / @kevmofoto
Larry: — cool —
Desi: — (NA) stuff —
Larry: –cool. Cool.
Desi: And then going back and forth. You know, I don’t want to put any kind of deadlines or hard stops on anything. So —
Larry: –yeah —
Desi: — I’m enjoying the sport, and I’ve always said, as long as I’m having fun, I’ll keep doing it.
Larry: If you were talking to a room full of high school girls, with your knowledge and your kind of life experience, what would you tell them about the journey? About to be an elite distance runner?
Desi: Yeah. I think it’s been said, it takes ten years to become an overnight success.
Larry: Ok.
Desi: And that’s what I would tell them. You know, it’s no one’s going to see those first ten years. It’s going to be up. It’s going to be down. It’s going to be up to decide whether you really want to keep chipping away at it. But you’re going to have to do the hard work and be patient. Have a lot of patience, and it’s going to take a long time. But if you put it in, you can have that breakthrough, and you can make it to the next level.
Larry: At the end of high school, what’s your best mile and 2-mile?
Desi: I think it was 4:54 —
Larry: — nice —
Desi: — and I was 10:39, 10:40. So, sixteen hundred and thirty-two.
Larry: Sure, yeah. What about the end of college. What was your best 10k time?
Desi: I only ran one 10k in college, and it was a conference meet. So, it was super (NA). I don’t even remember the time, but I was runner-up at the (NA).
Larry: And what about 1500, 3000 in college?
Desi: I don’t know. I know, 5k, I was 16:17.
Larry: Ok. When you did your first marathon, were you hooked?
Desi: Loved it.
Larry: Really?
Desi: Yeah.
Larry: And where was that? Was that — it was in Chicago, wasn’t —
Desi: — so this might be kind of ironic, but it was 2007 Boston. Which at the time was like the worst weather ever —
Larry: –yeah —
Desi: — it was the headwind nor’ easter. We might cancel, or we might not. And I ran it, and I was like, “This is the best event ever. I love the city, I love this course.” I didn’t care about the weather. I had a great time.
Larry: It was like 2:44, right?
Desi: Yes.
Larry: Ok, ok. Alright. What do you like about the marathon?
Desi: It’s long, which means there’s a lot of time for things to go right. There’s a lot of time for things to go wrong. There are a lot of things to manage. It’s this huge puzzle. I think, sometimes, track and field feels like checkers, you know —
Larry: — yeah, yeah —
Desi: — charge ahead, and you just gotta tough it out. And the marathon, to me, feels like chess, where you’re always thinking, and you have to have a plan, and you have to adjust. It just seems so much more strategic because of the length.
Larry: If we took you back to 2011, in that race, what do you remember from that race?
Desi: I remember it playing out exactly as I had pictured for months, and months, and months —
Larry: — really —
Desi: — minus those last, like 60 meters.
Larry: Yes. Ok. No, cool.
Desi: Everything but that. Yes. So, I just remember feeling like, “All right, this is coming together perfectly. This is exactly how I pictured it. I feel great. And now, I’m moving up. And now I’m in the right position.” And I told myself if I was with the group at twenty miles, I can win. And I just ran exactly how I had hoped to and how I had pictured most of the way.
Larry: When you ran Boston this year, when did you start feeling good?
Desi: Yeah. I don’t know if I ever felt good. I think I realized that everyone felt bad.
Larry: Ok.
Desi: And I realize that as bad as I felt, I was feeling better than everybody else.
Larry: Ok.
Desi: And that was probably before the right-hand turn at the fire station. I think —
Larry: –ok —
Desi: — it was kind of strung things out there. And I looked back, and it was like, “Oh. I’m doing some damage here. I did not expect that —
Larry: — yeah —
Desi: — I must not be feeling as bad as everyone else.
Larry: Bill Rogers told me one time, I asked him, what was the key to his four wins. And he goes, he felt terrible ’til sixteen and a half, seventeen miles. And then he started going, “Wow man. Everybody else is hurting.” You know, kind of a thing. When you’re in a place where you start breaking it open, can you sense when everybody else is having trouble?
Desi: I did that day. I mean –I mean, I rarely ever break people in races.
Larry: Yeah.
Desi: But I knew it that day. It just strung out really quick, and you know, I wasn’t fast, to begin with, so, it was like, if I’m doing damage here, people are in trouble. Whether it’s from the pace or just the conditions, or whatever it is, you gotta keep your foot on the gas. This is doing something.
Larry: Final question: What do you love about the sport?
Desi: One, the community. I mean, I never thought I would be in this sport for this long, but we just meet the most incredible people. Having been on a team for thirteen years and having a lot of teammates, I can go, pretty much anywhere in the country and have a friend to run with, which is amazing. And, you know, that just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and you meet more great people. So, that’s probably number one. But two is just the challenge of if. It’s this way to test yourself. And maybe the, you know, the goal is always changing. And sometimes it’s, you know, just get to a finish line. Sometimes, it’s get in shape, you know. Sometimes, it’s lose five pounds if you’re coming back from an injury or whatever it may be. But, there’s always a way to test and challenge yourself, and measure your improvement in running. So, it’s just incredibly rewarding.
Larry: Desi Linden, thank you for the time. We’re with Desi Linden in San Antonio, Texas. And you’re kind of running with a group of people tomorrow?
Desi: I have two contest winners who are actually the coolest contest winners ever, which is great —
Larry: — nice —
Desi: — and I’m going to help them run to their goal, which originally on paper was 1:55. We’ll see what that works out to tomorrow. But we’re all going to herd out there.
Larry: Nice. Desi, thank you very much. Larry Eder with RunBlogRun. Signing off.
